APPG Adult Social Care “Making Sure People Have More Control In Their Lives”

29 February 2020

A focus on coproduction and co-creation in care

On Monday we were invited to the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Adult Social Care event themed “Making Sure People Have More Control In Their Lives”. Here we provide a summary.


What’s an All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) anyway?

All Party Parliamentary Groups, or APPGs as they’re more commonly known, are groups of MPs and members of the house of Lords (Peers) who form informal groups which promote, discuss and campaign on particular issues. Whilst they perform an important function of bringing experts, people with lived experience and politicians together on an issue, they have no official status in parliament. There are hundreds of All-Party Parliamentary Groups (see p128 of this document):

CLICK HERE : Register of All-Party Parliamentary Groups Feb 2020

Social care related APPGs include APPG on autism, APPG for disability and the APPG on social care. On 24th February we were invited to the APPG on adult social care event which focused on Co-Production & Co-Design and was chaired by Lord Low of Dalston (Conservative member of the House of Lords) and Labour MP Helen Hayes.


A Personal Story


The first guest speaker was Sally Percival who co-chairs the organisation TLAP and the National Coproduction Advisory partnership. Sally shared with us her deeply personal experience of creating a care team around her son and how coproduction and co-design meant that he was able to live his life not the life others chose for him. The lack of coproduction meant he would be doing activities built on assumptions which he had no interest. A coproduced support plan meant her son’s self-esteem sky-rocketed and his skills increased. He has now moved out of her home and into his own, which meant not just independence for him but a new career and life for Sally.

Sally's top tips for coproduction

For Sally, coproduction is about:
  • Trust
  • Equality
  • Diversity
  • Accessibility 
  • Reciprocity - a message which also came out during our Coproduce Care Chat Podcast with Tina Coldham
  • and open minds 
Sally also shared with us an image of an iceberg from Cat Duncan-Rees which fabulously illustrates the difference between co-production and co-creation. 


Panel 1: “Who decides what my care and support looks like?”

The first panel tackled the question of “who decides what my care and support looks like?”. Unfortunately, there weren't any people with lived experience on this panel but there were plenty of social care advocates including Vic Rayner (Executive Director at the National Care Forum), Kathy Roberts (Chief Executive of the Association of Mental Health Providers), Christine Eade (Manager at The Pod, Coventry City Council), Rachel Mason (Family Carer and Associate Consultant, Self Directed Futures) and Steve Scown (Chief Executive at Dimensions). 

Vic Rayner, Executive Director at the National Care Forum

Vic Rayner pointed out that the social care system for accessing care and support is frustratingly complicated and that personal budgets are one way to enable person-centred care where care is delivered by very skilled workers. Vic gave one of the most powerful statements when she pointed out that 

“Care should not just be person-centred but person-led care” 
Can this be the new slogan for care ?!

The Care Act 


As with many of the interviews Coproduce Care has been doing with champions of good care, Christine Eade requested that the sector focuses more on implementing the Care Act 2014 – for Christine, this should be the foundation. Rachel Mason strongly emphasised the impact of community support in enabling her to be a carer for her son’s. In Rachel’s experience it wasn’t whether care worker supporting her son had qualifications, it was whether they could provide personalised care which was key. Ultimately, personalised care enabled her to reduce paid support. 

Question Time

Perhaps the most enlightening part of the afternoon’s talks was when they opened up for questions. One of the first questins came from Dr Jean Hardiman Smith – Chair of the Health and Care Committee of National Pensioners Convention (NPC). She explained how she heard of a person who had their bank account emptied by a personal carer and that a one size fits all for personalised budgets doesn’t work. Rachel Mason agreed that personal budgets, whilst conceptually sound, put a huge responsibility on the person if managing it themselves. 
Another audience member and social care consultant, felt that if people are to take control of their care and support then the Care Act 2014’s eligibility system needs to stop and called for parity of esteem with the way we access services in the NHS.



There was a notable frustration from the audience with the lack of understanding of Independent Living and the need to define and inform social care leaders about it. The most enlightening question came from a 69 year old user of services who was also a former planning officer. He reminded us that for over 40 years there has been the disabled person’s movement of ‘Nothing About Us Without Us’. 

This audience member was frustrated at the continual medicalisation of people with disabilities and assessments by professionals who, he felt, put people into boxes rather than getting to know them better. He wanted to know why the APPG discussions were not centred around the concept of POWER and why the term independent living has become a ‘no-no’ and replaced by the ‘nebulous term social care’. He wanted a focus on removing barriers and for everyone to start ‘talking to us and not about us’  (an excellent point!)


This statement fundamentally shifted the direction of the event. Steve Scown led a response from the panel by agreeing. Steve pointed out that “power needs to be placed in the hands of those being cared for”. Vic Rayner responded by stating that social care in fact needs a broader understanding of what it is meant to do.

Finally, Vic pointed out that March 22nd signals the end of the government’s first 100 days in office, a date where the Prime Minister promised cross-party talks for social care - so watch this space from Boris and #first100days

Panel 2: “How do we make best practice common practice?”


The second panel had the task of discussing “How do we make best practice common practice?”

This panel included Helen Hayes MP (Co-Chair of the APPG on Adult Social Care) , Andy Tilden (interim CEO of Skills for Care), Issac Samuels (Member of National Co-Production Advisory Group at TLAP), James Bullion (Vice-President of ADASS), Danielle Conway (Health and Care Worker at Manchester Community Central) and Mario Ambrosi (Director of Communications and Marketing at Anchor Hanover



Whilst Andy Tilden felt that best practice in organisations is not replicated everywhere and the sector needs to relentlessly look at coproduction and codesign. The one and only user of services (or avoider of services as he described himself!) Isaac Samuels, talked about a rights-based approach to social care and that we have effectively lost the meaning of ‘independent living’. He also called for more transparency in local authority funding decisions asking: who’s overseeing the ‘funding panels’ and how do they work?!
James Bullion had some clear messages for social care:
  • The sector should be properly funded “good funding breeds good practice” - £3.5 billion is needed for the sector just stand still.
  • Local authorities should be open to challenge from people like TLAP
  • Technology should spread good practice. 
  • There are some great tools available which local authorities should be using such as TLAP’s and SCIE’s innovation network
  • Contrary to popular opinion, James didn’t feel that the health and social care regulator CQC (Care Quality Commission) should inspect local authorities as they do other services. For James this would be an unnecessary expense 
  • The language we use to discuss social care and disability isn’t helpful and is fractured
  • There should be rights based advise workers 


Helen Hayes also pointed out the lack of funding as a failure of government. She agreed that the aim should be on delivery and that we should stick to ‘nothing about us without us’, with the system involving people at every stage of engagement and putting diversity at the heart. Helen felt that there should be a renewed focus on the pay for care workers and the value of relationships – something she felt isn’t, but should be, represented on the balance sheet of all organisations. Her final points included encouraging people to engage with their local members of parliament before the chancellor’s budget in March.

Question Time

During the questions section for this panel, Becky – from Shared Lives Plus asked Helen Hayes whether she had attended the Social Care Future’s event, where people with disabilities, advocates for the sector and progressive sector leaders discussed the “language” used in our modern discourses of social care. Becky highlighted research being done involving social care futures and carried out by Lancaster University (something Neil Crowther discussed in our up and coming podcast with him). According to the research so far, using the word ‘crisis’ to discuss the care debate effectively shuts down the conversation. Suggesting that when the sector is described as being in crisis, people feel that it’s effectively a foregone conclusion and nothing else can be done. Becky pleaded to Helen that politicians start talking about other ways of framing social care.

Not quite the short summary we initially intended! But such a thought-provoking discussion and hopefully an informative blog.


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